- Rosie Mann, Sanjay Sanan, Jagraj Singh Norway and 22 others like this.
Dalvir Gill ਆਖਰੀ ਸਤਰ ਦੇ ਅਖੀਰ 'ਤੇ ਹੋਕੇ ਵੀ ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹਾਇਕੂ ਨੂੰ ਦੋ ਹਿੱਸਿਆ 'ਚ ਵੰਡਦਾ ਹੈ| Can you explain further, preferably with an example.
Ranjit Singh Sra 日本はばくちの銭もさくら哉
nippon wa bakuchi no zeni mo sakura kana
it's gambling money
here in Japan...
cherry blossoms
木の下は汁もなますもさくらかな
ki no moto ni shiru mo namasu mo sakura kana
under the tree
soup, fish salad, and all--
cherry blossoms
tr. Ueda
In these haiku of Basho 'kana' is cutting word!!- Dalvir Gill I'm aware of it that Japanese have placed it at the end, ( I've examples from English as well, but those writers don't believe that the purpose of the "cut" is to create "phrase-fragment"; rather, it's to create Ma ) but none of these English translations do that. But the point is if "Cut" is used to "divides haiku in two parts" then what's the sense behind placing it at the end of third line? That was my sole question,"ਆਖਰੀ ਸਤਰ ਦੇ ਅਖੀਰ 'ਤੇ ਹੋਕੇ ਵੀ ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹਾਇਕੂ ਨੂੰ ਦੋ ਹਿੱਸਿਆ 'ਚ ਵੰਡਦਾ ਹੈ|" How so?
- Ranjit Singh Sra End-verse kana 哉
ひやひやと 壁をふまへて 昼寝哉
hiyahiya|to| kabe|wo|fumaete| hirune|kana
cool|so| wall|(accusative)|put-feet-on| siesta|how
how cool the feeling
of a wall against the feet —
siesta
(Bashō, tr. Darlington)
Here the kireji kana is placed at the end of the verse. Its effect is to express wonderment, drawing the reader to re-read the verse. It is represented in the translation by the exclamatory 'how'. - Dalvir Gill "Its effect is to express wonderment!" that's what i was trying to say that because we've been taught that it is to "divide a haiku in two parts" so the whole thing developed along those lines, even Basho has said the same ( but he also talks about the verses without Kire ). That's why I said in my previous comment,"the purpose of the "cut" is not to create "phrase-fragment"; rather, it's to create Ma. And in Barnhill's words," ...... ( The blanks ) are not something to be filled by the reader but to fill the reader." I was asking how placing it in the end of the third line cuts the haiku in two parts?
- Dalvir Gill And again Bhaji, i'd love you to answer that question, i'm not saying that it doesn't appear at the end of third line. I can share so many of Japanese haiku where Kire is at the end.
- Dalvir Gill Even though I'm not a big fan of HSA ( Haiku Society of America ), but here: The enjoyment of ma is a way to talk about the enjoyment of haiku, whether as reader or writer. The aspect of ma in haiku cannot be precisely codified, as ma is neither a thing (object) nor a singular quality, but rather an experience of psychological “betweenness” (interval of psycho-poetic time/betweenness, space/gap, metaxy) arising out of the technique of kire:
The “cut”/”cut” of haiku: haiku is a literary form based on truncation, isn’t it? So, yes, haiku “cuts” explanation: this is haiku. Haiku “cuts”: scenes, actions, everything, and cuts time and language. So, though it is said that “cutting” is really omission, I think that “cutting” is at the same time the essential proposition of haiku. And, if asked about what haiku is, there are a variety of aspects of haiku — that is, as a seasonal verse, or as a form of poetry consisting of “five-seven-five” — but the essence of haiku is “cutting,” in my opinion (Uda Kiyoko, forthcoming).8
The main element evoking ma is the activity of kire, as Uda indicates above........................ ( @ http://www.hsa-haiku.org/frogpond/2009-issue32-3/revelationsunedited.html )www.hsa-haiku.orgFor each issue, we will invite a different poet to reveal trade secrets or pet p...See More - Ranjit Singh Sra ਭਾਜੀ, ਜੇ ਕਿਰੇਜੀ ਪਹਿਲੀ ਜਾਂ ਦੂਸਰੀ ਸਤਰ 'ਚ ਆ ਜਾਵੇ ਫੇਰ ਵੀ ਉਸਦੇ ਹੱਥ 'ਚ ਆਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਕੂ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟਣ ਲਈ ,, ਅਠਾਰਾਂ ਕੱਟਿੰਗ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹਨ ਜਾਪਾਨੀ 'ਚ ਜੋ ਅੱਡ ਅੱਡ ਹਾਵ ਭਾਵ ਦਰਸਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ|
ਮੇਰਾ ਇਸ ਪੋਸਟ ਪਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਮਤਲਬ ਨਵੇਂ ਪ ਹ ਦੇ ਮੈਂਬਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਕੱਟ ਅਤੇ ਕੱਟ ਮਾਰਕ ਕੀ ਹੈ ਨੂੰ ਸਾਂਝਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਸੀ ਕਿਓਂਕੇ ਜਦ ਮੈਂ ਨਿਰੰਤਰ ਵਾਕ 'ਚ ਕੱਟ ਮਾਰਕ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਤਾਂ ਸਿੱਧੀ ਸੜਕ 'ਤੇ ਮੋੜ ਵਾਲੇ ਸਾਈਨ ਬੋਰਡ ਹੋਣ ਵਾਂਗੂ ਮਹਿਸੂਸ ਕਰਦਾਂ ਹਾਂ|
ਇਹ ਗੂੜ੍ਹ ਸੰਵਾਦ ਆਪਣੇ ਦੋਵਾਂ ਲਈ ਤਾਂ ਦਿਲਚਸਪ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਸਿਖਾਂਦਰੂਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਅਸਲੀ ਮੁੱਦੇ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਸੇ ਲਿਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ| - Dalvir Gill Ok I'll hush up, but it can't hurt to Understand Ma ( for what the 'technique of Kire' is used ). Just check the entry for "Japanese Aesthetics" in Wiki and see that we are not making use of any of those aspects. Here too, all i was saying was that it's not to cut the haiku in phrase and fragment but to create Ma, so is said by the HSA ( as indicated by the link above ).
Friday, July 19, 2013
ਕੱਟ ਦਾ ਮੰਤਵ - ਇੱਕ ਚਰਚਾ
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